Switching Industries as a Communications Professional

Transcript

Machine-generated transcript. This text was produced from the final audio and checked for broad coverage and obvious errors, but it may contain mistakes. Speaker identities have not been verified.

1. 00:02

   Hello, I'm Ibukun, and I am Grace. We are the hosts of Unmuted Comms, a podcast for comms leaders by comms leaders. This is a podcast about the leadership, influence, and decisions behind great non-profit communication. We have candid conversations about what it takes to lead communications in the non-profits sector. These include things like building strong teams, advising executives, objectives, navigating organizational dynamics, earning influence and making comms a more strategic force for mission and impact. Awesome. I think we're live. All right. Hi, everyone.

2. 00:45

   Welcome to the second edition of Unmuted Conversations in Comms. This is where communicators like us are going to think out loud. And I'm here with my friend, Grace. Hello. Happy New Year. Are we still saying happy new year? Well, it's still within January, So I hope so. As long as I've not seen you this year, I consider it Happy New Year. It's so good to be able to come back, have a chat with you all and it feels great to be kicking off our very first session of 2026. Yes, it is. It is great to back. We're glad to have you all here.

3. 01:20

   So today's topic was inspired by a comment in the last edition, last year. It was by Isabel and she mentioned, you know, she asked a question about switching industries as a comms person. Now, it's common to see people moving from internal comm roles to public sector or from agency to charity but switching industries could also mean you're going probably from PR agency to working for the government, from tech to pharma, from finance to working for a nonprofit. So this is something that we will be discussing, Grace and I. It's something we've lived through. And so just sharing some of our experience today. I think it's also something every comms person is sort of interested in at some level. So Grace, switching industries

4. 02:13

   and your experiences, what's been your experience? Is it smooth ride? Is this something you have to relent the ropes? What's the situation there? My gosh, it's a bit of both. It definitely ultimately been, I would, smooth ride comes later after you've kind of launched the ropes and even then there are different contexts that need to be in place for it to be considered as smooth ride so I guess that's also very subjective but totally re-learning the ropes quite a bit of a steep curve and I'm actually very excited we'll be talking about that today and you know as we have this conversation we're going to be unlocking the wins what has worked you know the oops moments where you're like oh my goodness gracious what was that about and looking

5. 02:55

   looking at what remains as evergreen skills. Like we've said before, I think it was in Ibukun's post, comms is considered an agnostic career and ideally should be kind of a smooth sailing, you're moving from one sector to another, but even then the rules of engagement are best practices, and that's some of the things that we're going to be talking about. So, we want to just preface this by saying in this whole situation about careers especially today there's so many things that seem to be working against us from budget cuts you know we have got global economic constraints the competition is now harder and higher than before.

6. 03:42

   We have technology in terms of AI, and also consider the same technology for example is the one that is doing the pre-screen, the pretest of you know your applications. So there's quite a bit of almost looks like it's working against us in and I don't think it's just a comms profession only you know hazard that it's across board but for some reason as comms we are feeling it more especially because some of this technology as well seems to be replacing our work whereas us, that is actually not what should be the case and it actually cannot replace the inherent skill sets that we bring in you know the judgment and just being able to hide from that success and knows for news that kind of thing so we wanted to preface by just acknowledging

7. 04:28

   that right now the situation is not easy however even in that kind of a dark landscape. We have opportunities that are still coming up, industries that are coming, they're there, the legacy industries, there are others that are coming up. Opportunities are still many and so we remain positive, we remain hopeful in terms of continuing to expand our skillsets, continue to expand our value as communication professionals. So having said I want to, for us to just dive into the conversation and start that by just setting the scene in terms of our individual journeys. Just a very brief snippet. And starting with you, Ibukun is very interesting. Your journey to coming to development comms is one that I think more people should hear about. So please, over to you.

8. 05:21

   Okay, thank you, Grace. So once upon a time, a long time ago, so the official story is I started as a journalist. Yes, I was covering African tech. This was around 2015. So I was lucky to be working at one of the biggest tech publications in West Africa. Then I moved to content marketing. at a startup. It definitely helped that. I had been covering startups, so I knew the language, I could speak the industry lingua. Then I was also doing some freelance work on the side, copywriting, designing, web design, but it was still all within content and marketing, right? So I was about two to three years within tech content marketing space. But then in 2017,

9. 06:18

   or thereabouts, the Bill and Menda Gates Foundation opened a research center in Lagos Business School in Lagas, Nigeria. It was called the Sustainable and Inclusive Digital Financial Services, or SIDFS for short. It's a mouthful. So the thematic area, so this was my first move into development. So I moved from journalism to content marketing to development comms. and so the thematic area was financial services, banking, financial inclusion, you know poverty reduction so that was sort of the overarching theme of the work and I also happened to be the first communications hire for that particular organization. So it's a sort of like baptismal fire because you know I was coming into a new industry which was non-profit development so I had to learn the language but I also had to build comms systems

10. 07:15

    new things. And that went well. So in 2023, I switched industries again, but still within development. So I moved to food systems and climate security at the CGIAR. Again, totally new language and a bigger industry. So, I had to learn things again. And I've been doing that. You know, I've being there for about the last three to four years. Being there also meant, you know, moving to another country to continue to do development comms work. And so it's been a very interesting ride, so to speak. That's my journey. Over to you, Grace. So give us the high-right wheel for your own experience.

11. 08:01

    We need to have a whole conversation about how it has been just, you know, settling into Kenya and that whole journey. I think that's an important one. But yeah, so I, Devcoms, Dev comms, I touched it at internship level. That's where I was like oh you mean there's actually a profession like this? Like what do you guys do and it's good that whoever was my manager at the time you know was keen on showing me the ropes and you know learning and that kind of thing so when that internship got finished and was looking now for somewhere else to go what came in quite quickly was there was a travel magazine that was coming up which was the first one of its kind in East Africa. And so I joined that, I didn't know anything about travel writing or writing in magazines, magazine publishing, nothing. So got in there, land on the job, very exciting and all that. And then unfortunately, the organization wound up its operations in Kenya. So back to the streets wondering, oh my goodness gracious, what does this look like now? So I went into freelancing and focused quite a bit on travel, lifestyle, and health, writing.

12. 09:07

    and even when I was doing that, I was busy and really applying for positions and that kind of thing. And then I got an opportunity to join an NGO, a local NGO that had a Pan-African remit and that was in conservation and animal welfare. So when I did the interview there, I was among the final two but then the comms position went to somebody else and I was called back to actually take on a fundraising position. I remember telling them, the first thing I told the executive director, I don't know how to ask for money, so I cannot take that role.

13. 09:42

    He's like, can you just first come and have a conversation? That's not what you're coming to do. So then I went there, stayed there five years. That was actually a really good learning curve. I did everything from comms to fundraising to I was an executive assistant for a year at some time. I mean, it was an all-around thing. Then moved to renewable energy and then now I'm in food systems and this is actually going to be my sixth year. My God, when I say that out loud, it sounds crazy because as well, I came in here wondering, hmm, what is food systems? I mean food is food. What are you guys asking me to do here? And similarly was a new role. So I needed to come in and set up systems,

14. 10:27

    especially around coordinating country communications and putting things in order, so to speak. So that has been the journey so far and I personally think it's just starting. I'm very excited for the future. And yeah, I'm going to see where that's going to be taking us or taking me at least very soon, very soon. Awesome. Very exciting to see. Just quickly aside, before we continue conversation, you said something about about the organization where you were working as a, it's shut down. And I remember asking if you had saved some of those things you'd written because I think I saw a post by someone saying how do you save your portfolio? Because this happens a lot for so many places and then you can't find some of these ever again because the publication or the organization has gone out of business.

15. 11:24

    Yes, absolutely. And you're right because I had put it on Clipper online but then in those days there was it was physical you don't have IG and I don't know all those things you do a magazine old-fashioned way so I have all cut out different pages you know put them together it's a way for me also to flex to my kids that your mom is still cool kind of scenario but it's also for me to just see my journey where it's come from so at least now digitally we are able to do that I haven't transferred them, I know there are options to transfer digitally but I do have them on file. Yeah. Awesome. Okay so I guess let's go into the really hard stuff like the

16. 12:09

    real serious stuff right? Okay so when you were moving or switching industries I think the first thing like you mentioned one of the first hurdles is the hiring manager you So, how did you describe your value to a hiring manager who didn't get your previous industry? Let me tell you that I personally and to date always consider it the hardest but also the hardest and not hardest so to speak once you know how to go about it. But I had to so when I was coming from magazines and publishing and that kind of thing that space was travel, yes. Lifestyle, health, all those things, conservation. But I hadn't, at that point,

17. 13:00

    I had not yet connected the dots in terms of, okay, this organization that I'm applying to is actually in conservation, you know, in animal welfare. So there are themes that are, you know, relevant. And at that time, I was like, okay. You know what? Now let me sit with this JD because I usually believe there's what the JD is, what has gone out, but then there's what the team is looking for. And oftentimes when you sit with that JD, you kind of see below, behind the written word and what have you. So I think I memorized that JD word forward. So i sat with it and I went in so I realized, okay, for instance, one big thing because this was a Pan-African organization and they were really looking at alliance building

18. 13:40

    and collaboration, stakeholder engagement, stakeholder management was really big. So So under that I listed skills such as negotiation, relationship building, emotional intelligence which is really required when you're working with diverse stakeholders from government to community and across that board. And so then what I did was when I was practicing for my interview, I would take say for example is that stakeholder engagement? And I would identify what are the outcomes when I'm doing travel writing, when I also also doing freelance writing, what are the outcomes that I achieved from stakeholder engagement? And then what does that mean now for this organization? Because by that time you've done

19. 14:21

    your research, you check them out, you've seen what they're about and you've sent the gaps. And so how can I, so I'll be able to now say in the interview, stakeholder engagement, one of the things, for example, I'm doing, these are the outcome and the achievements that I had there and for your organization, I see this translating in this way because I've seen say for example in the last two or three years your strategy has shifted from one to three so I believe that you know these skills then I can be able to contribute in four five six so that you can achieve seven eight nine. So it's a very intentional process of being able to identify what it is that your strengths are and why we you know I keep calling for us as comms professionals to

20. 15:05

    really have your swipe file, your personal swipe file where you make sure you're tracking your successes and this is because you then are able to identify a pattern. You can then see these are my strengths and so under these strengths you're able to think some of my outcomes in this place and then in another place maybe I volunteered at a school or I don't know your place of worship whatever that looks like all those experiences please put them down do not do not think anything is, you know, at a loss. So that then when you're trying to translate it, you're coming in to say my media work, I've been able to do one, two, three and get this kind of coverage. You can actually put it in a picture for the hiring manager and see, you now I've noticed

21. 15:47

    for instance, in the last two months your coverage has been maybe 3%, what's it called, national cover and I see that you are hearing that there's an opportunity for this to expand into regional media. And then now you're able to now translate and say, yes, I mean, if I do this and I've done this and some of my outcomes in media engagement, and then now for this organization, I believe that I'll be able to bring the skill sets to do one, two, three. So then that removes the, hmm, okay, what is this connection? So that is how I end-to-date is a system that I try to use as much as possible. And actually, and maybe just to add on to that, I find that if you receive an interview, I don't know, this is a personal thing. I know there's

22. 16:36

    some people who can sit and be interviewed now, and they're good to go. Perhaps if it's an informal conversation, yes. But I find that I need time. So I wouldn't accept an invite tomorrow, come tomorrow. I'm not prepared. I need to get into that zone. But no people like different. Personally, I prefer this time to let me prep so that then when I'm bringing what I'm bringing to the table, I'm clear about it. So that is how I was able at least and I've kept doing that to date, even moving into this food system space to just show the transferable being able to and then speaking in a language that is understandable even for the industry that you're going to. So because

23. 17:17

    maybe you are talking about stakeholder engagement and that industry they term it as maybe partnerships groups, so frame it in that way, so then the penny drops. But even as I say that, there's also the language now, just getting into that, the language of your new sector and how you go about it, so that you don't feel like an outsider. And we are very good at acronyms and all these things, oh my goodness, developmentally, send help, send helps. So for you Ibukun, I don't know, how did you go about learning the language of the new sector, especially like you who moved from in tech and now you're in CG.

24. 17:56

    Yeah, wow. So what I'd say is you start from within and then go without. So what did I do back then was I'd start from the organization's website really and just sort of read everything that's on there. This does several things for you. First of all, you want to know what already exists. It also gives you first-hand data so you know if the website is any good, how easy was it for you to find what you were looking for since you are actually the outsider in this instance as an outsider going into an industry. So first of all you are coming to the organization, you're going to their website, you are reading everything they have, everything they've published

25. 18:44

    If it's in the nonprofit space, most organizations usually have an annual report, so I would say that's also something that should be very high on your reading list. You know you want to sort of read everything, so it does a lot of heavy lifting for you, so you have an understanding of how they see themselves, what's important to them, and what they've published, probably some achievements, things they like to brag about that helps also right so their websites read everything on the websites with all the reports that you have it's good to then from within then you now start going without so you start then you show then you go to Google sort of just Google them try to read everything has been written about them and also what they have published on other platforms or publications

26. 19:37

    and all that. That helps you understand the institution's voice, the brand, how they speak. Are they very official? Are they conservative? Are they a bit out of the box thinking? That also establishes that for you. So as you're doing all this, you are learning through absorption. You're sort of absorbing the language. But one thing that I would say, and I said I was going to drop this, is that something that's been very helpful for me is to actually Google what critics are saying about the organization and about the critics.

27. 20:17

    That's a nice one. The reason is because when most organizations publish, especially in non-profit space, when they write or publish reports or things, they usually write either for policymakers makers, or for the donors. Right? So because they know it's going to be reviewed in some way of measure and they already have to report it so there's that. The donor is hanging sort of behind the editor's back. So the tone sort of speaks to the donor. But a critic doesn't have any of that problem. Critic is writing for everybody. So it's very simple to understand.

28. 20:56

    It's very compelling. He pulls on different facts. Sometimes they go, they present their facts chronologically. So, you know, it's one of the fastest ways to get up on an issue or an organization or an industry. Just go read what critics are saying. People who don't sort of disagree with what the mission is or they have some, you of complaints. Just go sit down, read about three to four. You walk away with talking points.

29. 21:31

    You walk a way with an understanding of what's going on and even it helps you understand how people sort of view the organization so when you're attending meetings also or when you are trying to build your strategy that also helps you to be able to say I read this opinion I read this article and it highlighted this, this, and I think that to be able to mitigate against that we should do this and this. So it's just you arming yourself with intelligence basically. So I think a very big one that people sometimes tend to not actively go after.

30. 22:07

    I think it's also good for your curiosity because you're new so you should sort of as you're reading treat it like an assignment. Just read everything, open as many and read as many tabs, as many articles and publications on your phone or your laptop, you know just sort of immerse yourself in them and take notes things are confusing anything that seems confusing to you there's some that's a signal you should probably write it down that means probably for an outsider because you're still an outsider so that's the signal that maybe this is an area that you can sort of champion or invest some resources in that you know to explain to also sort of own that narrative in that field. I think that's one. And then anything that is interesting

31. 22:53

    to you because you're also an outsider, that's also another signal. So anything confusing and anything interesting, you should take those as signals on what to sort of go after and sort of dig in more and some interesting ideas that you might want to explore. Then And lastly, I'd say maybe one thing that also helped me was I had a good boss who took me into meetings with her. So I just sort of picked up things through learning, you know, just hearing people leaning in, trying there are many things that went over my head.

32. 23:25

    But also just seeing the interactions, the acronyms, seeing how they were used, you tend to sort of pick things up just by observation. So those are the simple ways that say to get yourself up to speed in a new industry. I don't know if you want to add anything to that. I think you've said something so important about your critics. I think that is, I don t think that's something that we consciously actually think about, oh, what are the negative reports, criticism, whatever is coming up about this organization.

33. 24:02

    So that for me is a key takeaway in terms of just thumbing up that prep for your interviews. And then similarly, something you've mentioned about noticing where some of the tension points are in terms okay, I'm not clear what this is, what does this mean? What do these guys do? I remember when I was transitioning to my current role, I had a lot of confusion about exactly what food systems, and the whole ecosystem. What does this even mean? And so what you're saying in terms of really digging, I went listening to videos, TED Talks, anyone who was talking about anything with food, it was just playing in the background until the day, and you know, the penny fell after

34. 24:47

    a while, just an instant. And when I was like, yeah, oh, okay, that's what, so that's how this is about. And so it's an important one to have in mind in terms of just building your prep, because some of the higher you go in comms and perhaps other professions, some of these interviews are not just interviews, they become conversations. So when you're able to offer depth to your responses in terms of, you know, exploring maybe even linking different topics in and outside even what that organization is talking about. Maybe it's what their peers are doing or even their competitors.

35. 25:28

    So when you're able to add depth to that conversation, it shows that versatility that this person actually came here prepared and they have really thought about this role. And, you know, they're not just looking to jump through because of,you know, money and all those are good. But I mean, you're going to be spending a lot of your time there from morning to evening. so it might as well count you know. So that's something as well to bear in mind, have a wide understanding and the wide scope of how you are presenting the yes your skills but also the interviewers can hear their pain points in your conversation and they're like yeah this one this person gets it so then there's that connection. Yeah so you're a comms person so basically you're

36. 26:12

    doing your comms too. Okay, so let's move on to the next thing. So I'm gonna ask you, so how did your perspective on comms as a whole? How has it changed? You know, you've been through three different industries, so has that affected your understanding and your perspective on comms itself. Number one, we are not paper pushers as communications professionals in any form or shape and let nobody ever try and put you in that box. You are a professional trained an expert, you are intelligent, you have got exactly what you need to move whatever that goal

37. 27:06

    of the organization is to the next level. And I come to really appreciate, I mean you could be doing fantastic work, but with a poor comms, you know, whether it's a whole team or just that function, nobody is going to know what you're doing and that is actually going to limit the organization. You also could really be having a good comms team, but then the why of the organization is not clear, the leadership, I mean this broken telephone there, that comms cannot cure that. It doesn't matter how good the team is, comms can not cure confusion of that level. There needs to be an alignment. So, but that I think there have been very many takeaways, but last one

38. 27:46

    I would definitely stress and underscore. You are not a paper pusher as a comms professional and you need to show up in the authority and the power that you hold as a comms professional. I don't know what that has looked like for you, Ibukun. Yeah, you're very right. I think just because when you come in, for me personally, it's Just when I came in, because sometimes you sort of acquire that mentality, right? Because the organization itself doesn't really understand comms. So they just sort of hire someone who can help them write and publish things. And so you sort of inherit that mentality that the role is all about writing and publishing, which it's not. So it helps to have that exposure. It helps to meet other people, you know, to be part of, thank God for

39. 28:39

    or the internet. There's so many online communities nowadays, you can go on LinkedIn here and meet wonderful experts, people who have industry experience, and so that exposure sort of helps you break out of that myopia, that this role is just about doing this and doing that. And then going from that industry to the next role and then the next rule, you sort of them begin to have that wider perspective that also this job is actually, it's a big deal.

40. 29:15

    It's a responsibility. Yeah. So I think you're very right. I think just and then having that multiple industry perspective also helps you be able to easily identify skills that transfer and skills that don't. right, sometimes also. Then Eunice is also asking about upskilling. So she's asking how upskillin has influenced our careers and the key resources or courses that we found useful. You wanna go first? I'd say as with all things, I'll say it depends. So you should definitely take communication strategy course. The one I took was in Nigeria, it was by SA&A which was very good and

41. 30:11

    it really helped you know you're introduced to many different frameworks, you are introduced to case studies and then you know sort of they show you and it was it was an eye-opener because you know being able to work someone an expert with you know 20 years 30 years experience being able to walk you through a scenario and then, you know, you're coming in I was coming in with the perspective of, okay so I think I need to write a blog post. I need to pitch an opinion piece and all that and then but the person was like oh and then we sat down and started breaking down you know the stakeholders, the relationships we needed to build blah blah blah it was eye-opening. So having doing

42. 30:46

    a course on strategic communications itself I think it's if you don't have one I think is very good to do one then if it's in a regulated industry maybe be like banking, what's the other one? Health, medicine. I think it's also good to do a course that's not communications. It might be maybe health communications or in my industry research communications or science communications doing a course that is related, that is not just core communications but it's tilted or it has a bias towards that particular industry. It also helps.

43. 31:24

    you know it's aside from scaling you up, it also gives you some sort of extra credentials so you're not just you know the person who posts. You have some expertise even in the topic I think that also helps a lot uh I would say you know you have much more experience than this so you can give advice. I don't know I don t have much experience but your question is so timely Eunice and and one thing I would say, it is, I find it, you know, opportunity happens properly when you're prepared rather than waiting last minute. So the earlier you can do your upskilling the better as opposed to waiting for the very last minute and then that's when you're trying to get into the game. So say you have identified, you now, here I'm working in maybe

44. 32:16

    agriculture. And maybe when I'm having the program team conversation, there's some things that are not too clear. And there's so many, so many e-learning platforms. Others are open source, so it's free and it could be something as a simple two day. And in that two days, maybe they're just asking for four hours a day learning about smallholder farmers and how the model works in terms of how to scale whatever intervention it is. So I have done, personally, I've done courses on digital comms, I've been doing courses on fundraising, on comms itself, strategic communications, you never stop learning. Right now I'm doing one on AI as well which is free and which has been offered by just

45. 32:59

    actually I just came across it I think just on LinkedIn or some one of my WhatsApp groups that was shared. So taking those and that has influenced as well because for instance when you in terms of influence in your career, you're already thinking about where do I want to be maybe in the next two years? Maybe you want to take more leadership in that sense. So is there a leadership cost that you can get into that does not cost an arm and a leg? Or even if it costs, is it strong enough that you can justify the return on investment and you say this is what I actually want to undertake?

46. 33:32

    So that has also that mapping of where do you want me, what do I wanna do, do I always want to to be in this sector or my eye, maybe I'm interested in two or three other sectors for example. So just keeping my eyes open and my ear out on what's happening, for example, in the renewable energy sector, how are the trends changing there? So I'll take that up just for my own interest, kind of just buffer up my information. So I've done that. I've also done professional coaching and obviously I cannot recommend Michelle Thompson enough.

47. 34:04

    Please if you're not following her on LinkedIn please do. I think I should tag her here after this call just so that, Michelle Thompson and also she's got a great sub-stack and her TikTok as well, particularly for communication professionals. So I found that as well to be a very useful course to take and so I would say start by identifying the areas in the immediate that you have gaps in, that you feel okay, here I need to learn more about I need to learn more about what could it be, about social digital comms. Look for that and then maybe you say okay I'm good at digital comm but I feel maybe I'm rusty I just need to update that then still pursue it and then also think long term all right now that I've done that maybe in the next year where do I want to position myself what is that gap then you can go on with it and I always say don't fear even learning something outside your career just for your information as comms people we have to keep you know you read widely

48. 35:03

    informed widely, so I hope that gives you a source. And yeah, so YouTube, also a very big face, but we can always drop specific, what's it called, resources under your comment. Yeah, yeah. So just to quickly add to that one extra benefit of having, you know, that extra training, especially being versed in your industries. For example, you now was able to take the climate finance course. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done because, you know, it's been a long time I've done math and accounting about four months. What it does is you can actually understand industry news by yourself. You don't need to wait for the experts, you know, to sort of, yeah, there will be some context that you need extra, but having just

49. 35:53

    being able to go to the news and read, you know, and just understand what's happening rather than waiting for the experts tell you, oh this is happening we need to do this. I think that also helps elevate your ability to contribute strategically to the organization so that's also another habit of skilling. Absolutely okay and thank you so much for your comment Kibet I'm happy to hear that that is true always plan ahead as opposed to waiting for the very last minute sometimes you wait last minute and there's not enough time and having sat on this other side of recruitment the differences can be so subtle, we have very strong candidates and they've come to

50. 36:34

    the final leg. And I mean, the one who gets through is the one, oh, I did a certificate, gosh, I did at some two-day course on I don't know what, that they have the fundamentals you're already in. So please just stay prepared. You know, it favors those who are ready, it does favor those who aren't ready. Okay. And there's also a question from Saborni and please forgive me if I'm not pronouncing your name correctly. And you say, my question is for Grace, how was comms fundraising in the conservation space different from your other experiences? I mean, the VC space, but working on getting back to dev comms, specifically conservation, sector shift on the horizon. Go, go, go. Yes, go for that sector shift.

51. 37:20

    I don't know if I would say it's different because at the heart of it is getting very clear about the why of whatever organization is in whatever sector you're in so that when you're developing your fundraising materials, that is very clear. The tactics will be different. So you find that one person for one organization, those ones like the big conservation, let's call and the big boys. They'll have big campaigns with, what are they called? Celebrities and this kind of thing. But for small organizations, you have to really think where is the dollar going to stretch the most? So one thing that, for example, for us was quite successful was having a kind of Friends of the Organization membership program. And that actually came

52. 38:11

    very successfully in terms of people coming in and even had exchange programs who'd come to Kenya, learn more about our work by hands-on, whether it's disnaring, conservation, whatever that looks like. So it's formulating based on the why, what the organization is trying to solve for. Once you're clear and everybody's clear this is what we're working towards, then now you're able to develop strategies that feed into that. So I wouldn't in so much say that there's a lot of... Perhaps, but even then, that wouldn't be maybe the... And maybe Maybe because of years of intervention, the communities around conservation are harder to get buy-in from. That I see more because they've had a lengthier time with interaction

53. 38:54

    and with interventions from different people and different experiences, different premises and I think as well even maybe like the WASH sector might be that way but that's the one thing that I would say for sure there are harder buy-ins but go for it. Get clear about what what that organization is solving for, what is the desired outcomes and now adapt your strategies accordingly for what fits your budget and what fits your scenario. That's what I would say. But I think one thing that I wish for Ibukun to address is at the 2026, we're in 2026 and a lot has been said about the trends all the posts in January were heavily in that space so maybe just your thoughts on what do you think is

54. 39:37

    getting easier or harder for communications professionals when it comes to switching sectors. I think there's a lot of competition, there's been a lot of layoffs so you know the global economy there's there's so much going on right now it's not the best time to be job hunting to be honest so it's a a lot harder to, you know, to secure job. So probably we will see more people, you know, applying to opportunities outside the industries that they are familiar with.

55. 40:15

    So I think that's one and that's also going to be a bit challenging because I was discussing this yesterday that it's easier when your early career, probably your first five years as a person, skills people would hire for are mostly tactical skills. Can you write well? Can you edit? How fast can you write? Can you design? Can you edit an audio or prepare a podcast? Things like that. Just basically tactical things.

56. 40:46

    Can you execute if I hadn't over a task to you, can you do that? And those kind of skills you know it's industry agnostic right so for junior people so there's that advantage but then with AI and then also some other dynamics or trends that are going on in the industry it seems like junior people are also having it very difficult getting into or finding their you know finding their feet in industries and it's across comms, in-house agencies PR agencies everyone sort of So there are not really any easy answers. Sometimes that very famous answer, apply to as many places as possible and hope for the best is actually sort of good advice but then if you're a bit more senior it gets a bit difficult because as a comms person the higher you go the more experience you have the more valuable you are and that's when you start niching down

57. 41:51

    because people start hiring you, not because you can write well but because you're good at managing crisis. You have judgments. You know how to manage or coach executives or sometimes even just the relationships that you have within the industry. That's sort of what people put you for because they want to tap into those networks that you've already built so that's also something to be able to understand about how comms is it's sort It's not like, I think that's one of the ways it's a bit different from accounting because for accounting, a lot of times just being very good and it's sort of like math, just be very good with processing numbers and forecasting, building models, building valuation models

58. 42:36

    and things like that. That really is not so much as relationships you have or ... So I think big differences between comms and accounting. The longer you are within the industry, the more relationships you build, and those relationships become more valuable the more experience you've gathered. So I think that right now, to be honest, we don't really know what's going to happen. We are literally living through an industry transformation, and it's very exciting, but it's also really scary, especially for people who are of job hunting. So I would say those are sort of the ways I'm reading it. So if anyone, like you said earlier, if anyone is sort of job-hunting right now, I think that the person, you know, just keep on,

59. 43:27

    you know reach out, let as many people know as possible, know that you're job hunting and tell them to support you if there's any opening they should share with you. Join communities where they share you know job opportunities and just keep applying. Do you want to add anything to that? I actually went yesterday when we're preparing for this. There's a very good conversation we had about managing expectations around sector transitions and I think that is something that would be important for you to touch on and bring to this call because just so that the how-to, you know, you're applying to all these people but now here you are, you've got this experience and you know about the adjacent professionals and that kind of thing.

60. 44:09

    and so that's something I would like for you to just have a brief highlight of. Sorry, I missed that. Did you say that again? When we were preparing for this call, you talked about the thing that you talked about in terms of how as the higher you get into the roles of senior leadership and leadership within comms and just managing expectations when you are transitioning or desiring to move between sectors such that you are not, you know, transition, say you're in the health sector and now you're looking to go into something completely different like IT. How to be strategic so that your chances are higher?

61. 44:45

    Yes oh yes okay so I think what we said was that there are some industry when you're a bit more senior and you switch sort of switching or you gain some experience let's say five between five to seven to ten years um your industry switching can't be wild you can't go basically specifically from finance to something like maybe gender-based violence. Just to give a very wild example, you probably want to look for industries that have some overlap or shared interests with what you're ready to, for example, and you can just do that just by either you ask chat GPT the simplest way or just even observing how people sort of move because it's one of the things

62. 45:31

    that I learned when coming into comms was that it's sort of a revolving door function. People come, there is a high churn rate for comms people, maybe three or four years in an industry or in an organization and then they move again. And there's a reason for that but we won't go into that today. But the idea is you want to move to industries that already have some sort of overlap with the industry where you are. There's a very big connection. The reason is because because when you're applying for all those other industries people from within that industry let's say for example you are applying to an organization within the climate adaptation space for example and you're coming from maybe peacekeeping or nutrition for example now because you're switching industries you're going to be competing with people who have 10 years 15 years experience in

63. 46:29

    climate adaptation, and you're the outsider. So your chances are a bit thinner. It's an uphill climb compared to maybe if you were from food, I think from nutrition, I mean, a closer industry or a closer thematic area would be something like food systems, for example. Or even climate, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So just to look for that overlap, I think that's one of the ways to be strategic. Of course, if you see any opportunity you should apply, you should lean on your network to get yourself in there and at least get, the first hurdle is to get across or to get through the bots, the application bots, the ATS and all that, get in front of a hiring manager so you can speak to the person human

64. 47:23

    to human and convince them, sell yourself. Even being able to adapt your CV, it's harder when you're moving from an industry that has almost nothing to do with what you've been doing for the past five to 10 years. So always look for, because job hunting is basically competition, you're competing with hundreds of thousands of people applying for that role. So you always want to go where you have the advantage and the advantage will always be in industries where you overlap or you have some experience doing some of those things so I think that's what we said right? Yes and thanks so much for bringing that in because we wanted to be practical in terms

65. 48:03

    of how to manage expectations so that even as you are thinking of how industries, make it very strategic. Therefore you are not just moving from one side to the other wondering what is happening and if you find that you do not have maybe any kind of relational adjacent experience in that thematic area I always encourage taking on stuff like say volunteering there are so many small community-based organizations or that kind of thing So, for example, I, yes, right now I'm in food systems, but I really enjoy thematic areas in renewable energy as well as education.

66. 48:42

    So I can easily, you know, give my time. That way I get to learn about the sector, understand what's going on in there. And when it comes to a time, I'm thinking, hmm, this could actually be a good shift for me. It's not completely green territory. So that way then you're able to continue and, you know, the thing we keep talking about, upskilling, up-skilling. So give of your time, take on courses and learn, and that way, then you are always in that space of an open mind and you're going to absorb this good information that's going to help you in this job search.

67. 49:17

    And I really hope that even as you care about managing expectations, keep a positive outlook because even like I said when we're starting in that darkness there is still positive news people are still getting opportunities solutions are still being initiated and they still need comms and they will always need comm's it doesn't matter from the highest echelions to whatever you always need comes so that that would what I would add to that for sure if there's any major thing to take away from today's conversation is that you know comms is serious work and we have superpowers that you can take anywhere, but you have to be the one to sort of build them, nurse them and then present them. Grace, anything else? Absolutely. And then being very

68. 50:03

    strategic in how you're thinking about the transition from one sector to another, keeping within adjacent and familiar or rather not familiar, but related themes gives you a better opportunity. That doesn't mean that you do not have the odd one that they just went through and through because they were really able to package themselves. And I guess that's the second takeaway, learning how to package yourself and sell your skills because that's exactly what you're going to be doing, selling what you can do. So I hope this has been a valuable conversation for all of you. Yeah, very well said. Well done. Stay curious. Thank you everyone. See you on the

69. 50:39

    timeline. Thankyou for joining us for this episode of Unmitted Conversations in Comms. We'll see you you in the next one.